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LIEUTENANT-COLONEL (RETIRED) CAROL MATHIEU

We advised LCol (ret) Carol Mathieu that we would consider allegations that he exercised poor and inappropriate leadership in the pre-deployment phase of the Somalia mission by failing:
  1. To exclude from the mission officers and non-commissioned officers who he knew, or ought to have known, were poor leaders;
  2. To exclude from the mission non-commissioned members who he knew, or ought to have known, were causing discipline problems;
  3. To adequately assess and substantiate the operational readiness of the Canadian Airborne Regiment and the Canadian Airborne Regiment Battle Group;
  4. To ensure that the Canadian Airborne Regiment Battle Group was deployed with Rules of Engagement on which its members had been adequately trained and tested;
  5. To ensure that all members of the Canadian Airborne Regiment and Canadian Airborne Regiment Battle Group were adequately trained and tested in the Law of War or the Law of Armed Conflict including the four 1949 Geneva Conventions on the protection of victims of armed conflict; and
  6. In his duty as Commander as defined by analogv to Queen's Regulations and Orders art. 4.20 and in military custom.
We now address these allegations in order.
  1. Failure to exclude from the mission officers and non-commissioned officers who LCol Mathieu knew, or ought to have known, were poor leaders.
As the Commanding Officer (CO) of the Canadian Airborne Regiment (CAR), LCol Mathieu was responsible for ensuring that the officers under his command were competent, and to exclude from the mission any who were not. We find that LCol Mathieu failed in his responsibility to assess sufficiently the adequacy of two such officers, specifically Maj Seward and Capt Rainville.

LCol Mathieu was first alerted to the possible deficiencies regarding these officers on the day he took command as CO of the CAR. At a briefing on that day, BGen Beno expressed serious reservations about Maj Seward and Capt Rainville, and recommended that LCol Mathieu leave them behind when the troops were deployed.1

LCol (ret) Mathieu stated that because BGen Beno did not give "any...specific reason why" he felt the two should not be deployed, he "began to do a bit of investigative work"2 to satisfy himself about the General's concerns. He spoke to the former CO about the officers, then subsequently reviewed the officers' personnel files.3 No more was done by him beyond these measures. Then, as a result of these 'investigations', LCol Mathieu concluded that the officers were satisfactory and that they should be deployed to Somalia.4 Indeed, he kept Capt Rainville as commander of the Recce Platoon, and took no further measures to confirm the competence of these two key officers after his initial assessment.

Regarding Maj Seward, LCol (ret) Mathieu added the qualification that he was hesitant to replace Maj Seward because "I figured that changing the CO was enough turmoil at that time."5 This passive attitude was displayed to the Regimental Sergeant-Major (RSM), CWO Jardine, who also advised LCol Mathieu to relieve Maj Seward of command.6 CWO (ret) Jardine testified that LCol Mathieu responded to his advice by suggesting "there was nothing he could do about it at that time, it should have been done before he came into the Regiment."7 LCol Mathieu, in other words, implied that such matters as correcting deficiencies in sub-unit leadership were not his responsibility, but were those of the former CO, LCol Morneault. LCol Mathieu also told the RSM that concerning the matter of relieving Maj Seward, "Well, that's not within my realm, sort of, I'm just the new kid on the block here."8

Regarding Capt Rainville, LCol (ret) Mathieu testified that he in fact knew of both the incident at La Citadelle and the verbal reprimand administered by LCol Morneault.9 He ought to have known of the Gagetown incident, as it was referred to in the document evidencing LCol Morneault's verbal reprimand. He had access to BGen Dallaire's letter stating that Capt Rainville showed a "flagrant lack ofjudgment".10 Finally, he had received a letter from BGen Beno concerning the Journal de Montréal pictures, the final paragraph of which stated that BGen Beno had "grave doubts about this particular officer".11 LCol Mathieu responded to this letter with a call to BGen Beno, stating that BGen Beno "was satisfied with my reply".12 As regards the action he took against Capt Rainville, LCol (ret) Mathieu said he "discussed the matter in question"13 with the Captain, and was thereby satisfied that any concerns had been dealt with.

The actions LCol Mathieu took in dealing with the leadership problems of Maj Seward and Capt Rainville were seriously inadequate. He was told by his superior officer that the two should be left behind, but treated this advice as dispensable under the circumstances. He knew or should have known of the history of problems relating to these two officers. He had access to documented evidence that should have raised a serious question in his mind as to whether these officers should have been deployed. Instead of pursuing these matters, he resigned himself to the time constraints he faced: he said he simply did not have the time to form his own opinion.14 It seems to us that a responsible CO in this situation would take seriously the solemn concerns expressed to him by other officers, including his superior, and would have taken the time to confirm whether these doubts had merit. Even with a cursory examination, LCol Mathieu could not have but concluded that these doubts had a strong bas is in reality given the nature of the concerns expressed to him. He had at his disposal reports from the training exercise, Stalwart Providence, the opinions of the officers who had observed and interacted with Maj Seward and Capt Rainville, and had his Commander's strong recommendation. He also had access to personnel files which, at least in the case of Capt Rainville, revealed obvious and serious discipline, judgement, and leader ship flaws. Considering this, we fail to see why LCol Mathieu did not give the matter of removing these officers more serious consideration. When deployment is imminent, it is crucial that a unit be staffed with competent, reliable, and balanced officers. This should be an overriding concern to a CO, and LCol Mathieu's actions regarding this issue show a serious failure on his part to ensure that these problems were resolved.

  1. Failure to exclude from the mission non-commissioned members who he knew, or ought to have known, were causing discipline problems.
LCol Mathieu also inherited a number of disciplinary problems -- in particular, outstanding matters pertaining to the incidents of early October -- when he assumed command and, through his responsibilities as CO, was charged with the duty to ensure these problems were resolved. He clearly know of these problems. He was briefed by BGen Beno on the unresolved disciplinary incidents upon assuming command, but his actions suggest he did little to settle the issues raised before him. Regarding the car-burning incident, LCol Mathieu had received a preliminary MP report but stated "we didn't do anything with it",15 the rationale being that a military lawyer once told him "you don't touch [MP reports]. You look and you lay no charges with [them] because it's no use."16

LCol (ret) Mathieu's testimony contrasts sharply with that of LCol Morneault on the suggested approach to resolving this incident. With respect to the list provided in the MP report, LCol Morneault stated "I would have tried at my level each and every one of these gentlemen", that he would have left behind any he had found guilty, with the possible exception of Cpl Powers, and that he had a "strong feeling" that he would have found all on the list guilty.17 LCo1 Morneault advised LCo1 Mathieu to use the MP reports in the manner suggested, and that he be resolute in pursuing these issues.18 LCol Mathieu did not follow this advice.

Eschewing the MP report, LCol Mathieu instead "chatted...a little" with Maj Seward about the incident but stated that nothing conclusive came as a result.19 In the end, the action taken regarding this incident was that "two sergeants who were a bit weak were transferred."20 Whether or not this was even initiated by LCol Mathieu was not made clear in testimony.

Regarding the other outstanding incidents, LCol Mathieu imposed disciplinary action that amounted to no more than shuffling a few members between the commandos.21 LCol (ret) Mathieu stated that he also had presumed the downsizing of the CAR occurring at the time would have weeded out the undesirable elements.22

Shuffling members between commandos and relying on the presumption that administrative downsizing would accomplish disciplinary goals is a thin basis on which to build disciplinary order. MGen (ret) MacKenzie himself testified that something more than a mere shuffle should have taken place.23 In our eyes, such 'action' amounts to inaction. What is perhaps worse is that behind LCol Mathieu's inaction lay a theory that problematic individuals make the best soldiers in theatre. He stated: "the people who make trouble generally at the disciplinary level, in the garrison, are generally your best elements when you go."24 Thus, perhaps it is not surprising that LCol Mathieu deployed with MCpl Matchee, Pte Brown, Cpl McKay, and Pte Brocklebank, all of whom were implicated in serious breaches of discipline in theatre, and ail of whom appeared on the MP lists that LCol Mathieu had received before deployment. Neither is it surprising that among these four, MCpl Matchee, who had a record of previous incidents, was promoted by LCol Mathieu before the troops were deployed.25

LCol Mathieu's attitude to the disciplinary problems he faced, and the methods he employed to resolve them, are unacceptable. A CO bears the primary responsibility for ensuring the proper discipline of a unit. From his testimony, LCol Mathieu cared little about the details of the problems he faced. Neither did he concern himself with pursuing the problems to the proper outcome. ("I presume they left the least desirable elements."26) The methods he employed ("a small shuffle within"27) were inadequate. The promotion, furthermore, of MCpl Matchee, was a considerable error in light of events both before and after he was promoted. Finally, to the extent that LCol (ret) Mathieu disclaimed knowledge of pertinent events, or of persons thought to have been involved in them, there is evidence that he was neglectful in fulfilling his duties as CO. Obtaining such knowledge is crucial to a CO's disciplinary function and must be made a priority in all circumstances.

  1. Failure to adequately assess and substantiate the operational readiness of the Canadian Airborne Regiment and the Canadian Airborne Regiment Battle Group.
It was also LCol Mathieu's responsibility to adequately assess and substantiate the declaration of operational readiness of the CAR and the Canadian Airbome Regiment Battle Croup (CARBG). This is a crucial assessment function that can be carried out by active inquiry only; nothing less will suffice. We found nothing in the evidence before us suggesting that any such inquiry was carried out. The CAR was declared operationally ready for Operation Cordon on November 13,1992, littie more than two weeks after LCol Mathieu assumed command. In that period the only training that occurred was described by Maj Seward as "of a filler nature",28 and of neither a kind nor duration upon which one could assess operational readiness. Indeed, the troops were on embarkation leave for two weeks. Maj Seward also testified that, in any event, LCol Mathieu had "very little"29 involvement with training.

The training conducted for Operation Deliverance, and LCol Mathieu's involvement in it, were similarly scant. The schedule covered only 10 days in duration,30 and the training was intended to provide at least some exposure to the operational requirements of the new mission. However, considering the short duration, this exposure was very restricted, and the general perception of officers and soldiers was that events were far too hurried. LCol (ret) Mathieu himself shared this opinion, but added that he did not exert his influence to achieve a change of pace because "I had a schedule to stick to, I was told 'that's what you're going to do.' In the army, I follow orders; so I went."31 He furthermore stated that if he had advised that his Regiment was not ready, "Well, they would have said 'bye-bye' Mathieu, and brought in someone else."32 When questioned further on the ramifications of a rushed preparation, LCol (ret) Mathieu testified that the CAR was in any event designed "to be deployed at all times",33 and that rushed circumstances did not pose a serious obstacle. He therefore agreed that when an order issues from the higher echelons, a 'can do' attitude is the appropriate response.34

From the evidence, LCol Mathieu did nothing to assess or substantiate the operational readiness of the CAR or the CARBG before deployment. He was minimally involved in the scant pre-deployment training conducted during his command, and by his own admission was able to observe very little of the operational capabilities of his troops. Furthermore, he did not question the time constraints placed upon him, and was content to deploy simply with the preparation that could be arranged in the time available. He did not run his own regimental exercise, and did not command his troops in a simulated environment. LCol Mathieu bore the primary responsibility for ensuring that the CAR was operationally ready after he took over command from LCol Morneault. It was his responsibility to express any concerns about the operational readiness of the unit and to alert the chain of command accordingly. Without an adequate assessment of the CAR's training preparedness, LCol Mathieu failed in one of his important tasks as CO.

  1. Failure to ensure that the Canadian Airborne Regiment Battle Group was deployed with Rules of Engagement in which its members had been adequately trained and tested.
As the primary officer responsible for training, LCol Mathieu ought to have ensured that the members of the CARBG were trained and tested on, and had an adequate understanding of, the Rules of Engagement (ROE) for Operation Deliverance prior to deployment. To facilitate this training, he ought to have pressed National Defence Headquarters (NDHQ) for an early production of the ROE. Having taken command on October 26th, LCol Mathieu had two months to actively pursue these matters. According to the evidence, however, LCol Mathieu did not actively pursue this matter.

In his testimony, he stated that the ROE were received only very late in the deployment process. Members of the advance party received their ROE for Operation Deliverance on December l2th, just as they were about to deploy, and the main body received them "as they were getting their final administrative arrangements before their departure".35 Regarding the advance party, LCol (ret) Mathieu explained that "if there hadn't been a blizzard on the night of the 11th, we would have left without ROE."36 LCol (ret) Mathieu also explained that the late timing was of little consequence because ROE training is an inherent part of basic soldier training. The soldiers being deployed therefore had a presumptive knowledge of the ROE.37

To our amazement and consternation, LCol (ret) Mathieu also stated clearly that the actual rules of engagement per se are a formality more than anything else. When asked if he felt the soldiers were prepared adequately in the ROE, LCol (ret) Mathieu replied that training occurred in practical situations, on the ground.38 "Training goes on continuously."39 He added, furthermore, that the soldiers "had 36 hours to read them, to read their stuif",40 and that they were reminded frequently of the ROE in the orders groups they attended. This, in his mind, comprised adequate ROE training. When asked whether in this "training" hypothetical situations or scenarios were posed to the soldiers, LCol (ret) Mathieu stated, "you'd have to ask the commando OCs what they did, because I spoke about it with them."41 Regarding his own personal command input into this training process, LCol (ret) Mathieu stated that he asked his OCs "if they were confident that their men understood the Rules of Engagement".42 They told him they were, and although LCol Mathieu did not know how they gained this confidence, he was in any event satisfied with their responses.

We do not accept LCol (ret) Mathieu's explanations regarding proper methods of ROE training. Neither do we find acceptable the methods he actually employed, or his acceptance of the timing for the production of the ROE. As Capt Walsh stated, ROE should be produced "as early as possible in the mounting phase... [T]here is no time to pull out a card at the last minute."43 It is furthermore unacceptable that ROE training was left to a 36-hour period during which the soldiers were left "to read their stuff". ROE training is an important deployment matter, and a CO can never trust that it has occurred "on the ground". Furthermore, that LCol (ret) Mathieu would state that "you would have to ask the commando OCs what they did" only suggests that he really did not know the degree to which the soldiers felt comfortable in their knowledge of the ROE, whether they actually knew them, and whether they were in fact adequately trained to respond to scenarios they would face while in Somalia. These are ail important aspects of ROE training, and are responsibilities that fell squarely on the shoulders of LCol Mathieu as CO of the CAR. LCol Mathieu, however, did not fulfil these responsibilities. Instead, his contribution was the publication of an aide-mémoire card that was subsequently handed out to his soldiers.

  1. Failure to ensure that all members of the Canadian Airborne Regiment and Canadian Airborne Regiment Battle Group were adequately trained and tested in the Law of War or the Law of Armed Conflict including the four 1949 Geneva Conventions on the protection of victims of armed conflict.
As the officer primarily responsible for training, LCol Mathieu was responsible for determining whether the CAR had been sufficiently trained and was knowledgeable in the Law of Armed Conflict, and he ought to have remedied any deficiencies noted. It seems to us that LCol Mathieu was personally well trained to identify such deficiencies, as he should have been. In a paper written by him in 1984, entitled "New Horizons: Law of War Training for the Canadian Forces: A Luxury or a Necessity",44 Maj Mathieu stated that the chain of command must be trained "to a high level of knowledge through formal lectures and seminars conducted as part of unit officers' and senior noncommissioned officers' training".45 The chain of command "must also be taught not to tolerate any deviation from the provision of the conventions and to enforce the meaning of the law".46 If it is not, he concluded, "the CF could be faced with potential situations similar to the 'My Lai Incident' in future conflicts if the state of law of war training remains at its present low standard".47

Regarding the actual training conducted, LCol (ret) Mathieu said he arranged for the officers and senior non-commissioned officers to attend a lecture given by LCol Watkin on December 10th.48 Further, he requested that officers brief their respective chains of command and soldiers. LCol Mathieu did not, however, conduct courses and did not put his soldiers through practical exercises on the treatment of detainees.49 Rather, he assumed that a soldier would know what to do. When LCol (ret) Mathieu was then asked to note that several soldiers testified to not knowing what LCol Mathieu presumed they should know, he replied:

You may have fallen victim to the soldier's first defence. When in doubt, play the fool. Because when you go into the army, you learn to treat prisoners with dignity. Because prisoners are pretty simple. You capture them, you secure them. If they are injured, you take care of them.... It's as simple as that.50

This confusion does not accord with the more appropriate standards espoused by Maj Mathieu in his 1984 paper, and it does a disservice to the soldiers for whom LCol Mathieu was responsible. Furthermore, it relinquishes responsibility for ensuring an adequate state of knowledge in favour of relying on the exigencies of varied training programs over long periods of time, none of which, as the evidence suggested, emphasized either the Geneva Conventions or the Law of Armed Conflict. Even regarding the December l0th lecture, LCol Mathieu was remiss in his responsibilities. He stated that LCol Watkin merely passed out reading materials to the officers dealing with the basic principles. He also stated that "those officers pass it on, they disseminate the information."51 LCol (ret) Mathieu was obviously speaking from theory, for he did not know that Maj Seward of 2 Commando did not "disseminate the information".52 He also stated that he was "pretty sure" that the seminar information "must have filtered down" to the appropriate levels. However, no evidence of any such 'filtering' was presented during the hearings, and there is no evidence that LCol Mathieu took appropriate and reasonable steps to ensure or to verify that the information had been passed down and understood. For his part, Maj Seward stated that he received no instruction to pass the contents of the lecture on to his soldiers.53

The training conducted by LCol Mathieu on the Geneva Conventions and the Law of Armed Conflict was inadequate. So, too, was his knowledge of what training or information was actually given to the soldiers. LCol Mathieu merely relied on assumptions which proved to be unfounded. The troops were not comfortable with their knowledge of the Geneva Conventions as he assumed they were. They obviously did not all know how detainees should be treated and, in fact, did not evidence any standard treatment procedure in theatre, where detainee problems were numerous.54 Moreover, neither direction nor guidance was given to the OCs by LCol Mathieu, who again relied on assumptions that a certain course of training would be conducted. This behaviour does not suit the standard required of a CO, who must take an active role in shaping the training of a unit, and must devise standards against which to assess the adequacy of such training. In not conscientiously and responsibly ensuring that the Law of Armed Conflict was understood and that there was adequate training on the subject matter, LCol Mathieu failed to assume his responsibilities as a commander toward his men and the military.

  1. Failure in his duty as Commander as defined by analogy to Queen's Regulations and Orders art. 4.20 and in military custom.
Given our findings above concerning the leadership failures of LCol Mathieu, and in view of the importance of control and supervision within the chain of command, we conclude that LCol Mathieu failed as a commander.

NOTES

  1. Testimony of BGen Beno, Transcripts vol. 41, pp. 7946-7947,7951-7952.
  2. Testimony of LCol (ret) Mathieu, Transcripts vol. 168, pp. 34619-34620 (original: "Il m'a pas donné de raison plus spécifique pourquoi... j'ai commencé à faire un peu de travail d'investigation").
  3. Testimony of LCol (ret) Mathieu, Transcripts vol. 168, p. 34634.
  4. Testimony of LCol (ret) Mathieu, Transcripts vol. 168, p. 34667.
  5. Testimony of LCol (ret) Mathieu at Board of Inquiry, phase 1, vol. V, p. 1187.
  6. Testimony of CWO (ret) Jardine, Transcripts vol. 26, p. 4863.
  7. Testimony of CWO (ret) Jardine, Transcripts vol. 25, p. 4628.
  8. Testimony of CWO (ret) Jardine, Transcripts vol. 25, p. 4629.
  9. Testimony of LCol (ret) Mathieu, Transcripts vol. 168, pp. 34647-34652 and following.
  10. Document book 4, tab 6, p. 1, paragraph 1, BGen Dallaire's letter to BGen Beno, dated 23 September 1992.
  11. Document book 4, tab 6, p. 2, paragraph 4, BGen Beno's letter to LCol Mathieu, dated 15 December 1992.
  12. Testimony of (ret) LCol Mathieu, Transcripts vol. 168, p. 34663 (original: "...était satisfait de ma réponse.").
  13. Testimony of LCol (ret) Mathieu, Transcripts vol. 168, pp. 34664-34665 (original: "On a discuté de l'affaire en question.").
  14. Testimony of LCol (ret) Mathieu, Transcripts vol. 173, p. 35615.
  15. Testimony of LCol (ret) Mathieu, Transcripts vol. 168, p. 34603 (original: "...mais on fait rien avec ça").
  16. Testimony of LCol (ret) Mathieu, Transcripts vol. 168, p. 34603 (original: "un rapport militaire, tu touches pas à ça. Tu regardes puis tu fais pas de charge avec ça parce que ça donne rien.").
  17. Testimony of LCol Morneault, Transcripts vol. 37, p. 7178.
  18. Testimony of LCol Morneault, Transcripts vol. 36, pp. 7006-7007.
  19. Testimony of LCol (ret) Mathieu, Transcripts vol. 168, p. 34607 (original: "on a jasé de ça un peu").
  20. Testimony of LCol (ret) Mathieu, Transcripts vol. 168, p. 34609 (original: "on a muté deux (2) sergents qui étaient faibles un peu.").
  21. Testimony of LCol (ret) Mathieu, Transcripts vol. 168, p. 34624.
  22. Testimony of LCol (ret) Mathieu, Transcripts vol. 168, p. 34610.
  23. Testimony of MGen (ret) MacKenzie, Transcripts vol. 43, p. 8513.
  24. Testimony of LCol (ret) Mathieu, Transcripts vol. 168, pp. 34613-34614 (original: "... les gens qui font du trouble généralement au niveau disciplinaire, en garnison, sont généralement tes meilleurs éléments quand tu vas...")
  25. LCol Mathieu described his input into the process as a type of rubber stamping: Transcripts vol. 169, p. 34791.
  26. Testimony of LCol (ret) Mathieu, Transcripts vol. 168, p. 34610 (original: "...je présume qu'ils laissaient les éléments moins désirables.").
  27. Testimony of LCol (ret) Mathieu, Transcripts vol. 168, p. 34624 (original:"... de les déménager à l'intérieur de l'unité.").
  28. Testimony of Maj Seward, Transcripts vol. 30, p. 5818.
  29. Testimony of Maj Seward, Transcripts vol. 31, p. 6025.
  30. See Document book 13A, p. 29 (CAR Training Plan).
  31. Testimony of LCol (ret) Mathieu, Transcripts vol. 169, p. 34771 (original: "... j'avais un horaire à suivre, on m'avait dit c'est ça que tu vas faire. Dans l'armée, moi, je suis des ordres; par là, bien j'y va.").
  32. Testimony of LCol (ret) Mathieu, Transcripts vol. 169, p. 34771 (original: "Bien ils auraient dit exit Mathieu, rentre un autre.").
  33. Testimony of LCol (ret) Mathieu, Transcripts vol. 169, p. 34774 (original: "... à se déployer en tout temps.").
  34. Testimony of LCol (ret) Mathieu, Transcripts vol. 169, p. 34785.
  35. Testimony of Maj MacKay, Transcripts vol. 33, p. 6320. Capt Walsh stated that he received his "as I boarded the bus to leave for the airport": Transcripts vol. 13, p. 2357.
  36. Testimony of LCol (ret) Mathieu, Transcripts vol. 169, p. 34715 (original: "... s'il n'y avait pas eu une tempête de neige le 11 au soir, on serait parti sans règles d'engagement.").
  37. Testimony of LCol (ret) Mathieu, Transcripts vol. 169, pp. 34715-34716.
  38. Testimony of LCol (ret) Mathieu, Transcripts vol. 169, p. 34720 (original: "... ils le pratiquent de facto."'.
  39. Testimony of LCol (ret) Mathieu, Transcripts vol. 169, p. 34721 (original: "L'entraînement continue tout le temps.").
  40. Testimony of LCol (ret) Mathieu, Transcripts vol. 169, p. 34719 (original: "... ils avaient trente-six (36) heures... pour lire leurs affaires.").
  41. Testimony of LCol (ret) Mathieu, Transcripts vol. 169, p. 34722. (original. "... il faudrait le demander à des commandants de commando, qu'est-ce qu'eux ont fait, parce que... on en parlait.")
  42. Testimony of LCol (ret) Mathieu, Transcripts vol. 169, p. 34723 (original: "... s'ils étaient confiants que leurs gens comprenaient les règles d'engagement".).
  43. Testimony of Capt Walsh, Transcripts vol. 13, p. 2359.
  44. Document book 87, tab 02.
  45. Document book 87, tab 02.
  46. Document book 87, tab 02.
  47. Document book 87, tab 02.
  48. Testimony of LCol (ret) Mathieu, Transcripts vol. 169, p. 34714, vol. 173, p. 35709.
  49. Testimony of LCol (ret) Mathieu, Transcripts vol. 169, p. 34731.
  50. Testimony of LCol (ret) Mathieu, Transcripts vol. 169, p. 34733 (original: "Vous avez peut-être été victime de la première défense du soldat. Quand t'es en doute, tu fais l'imbecile. Parce que... en rentrant dans l'armée, ils apprennent à traiter les prisonniers avec dignité. Parce que, les prisonniers, c'est assez simple. Tu les captures, tu assures la sécurité. S'ils sont blessés, tu les soignes... C'est pas plus compliqué ça.").
  51. Testimony of LCol (ret) Mathieu, Transcripts vol. 169, p. 34734 (original: "... eux autres, après ça, ils passent, ils font la dissémination de l'information.").
  52. Testimony of LCol (ret) Mathieu, Transcripts vol. 169, pp. 34734-34735; see also Testimony of Maj Seward, Transcripts vol. 31, p. 6023 (original: "je suis pas mal certain ... a dû filtrer jusqu'à un certain niveau...")
  53. Testimony of Maj Seward, Transcripts vol. 32, p. 6219.
  54. In Pte Brocklebank's court-martial proceedings, Cpl Glass stated that soldiers "could try to keep [detainees] uncomfortable" and that "we would keep [a detainee] awake all night or we would pour water on him." See testimony of Col Labbé, Transcripts vol. 164, pp. 33346-33348, for references.

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